Expat Ukraine Forum

Expatriate Life => Visa and Immigration => Topic started by: Vitaliy50 on 11:01 14-Mar-2017

Title: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Vitaliy50 on 11:01 14-Mar-2017
https://rusreality.com/2017/03/14/poroshenko-introduced-in-parliament-a-bill-to-ban-dual-citizenship/

Don't know if this is a Russian site, but the only English language article I could find.

"such a base will now be considered the situation when a person who has voluntarily acquired the citizenship of another country"

If the law passes, I think the only way dual citizenship with Ukraine will be allowed if you left Ukraine prior to the age of 18, and acquired citizenship of another country. That way you are not "voluntarily" acquiring it as you are a minor.

Am I reading it right?
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Tiancai on 12:04 14-Mar-2017
Yeah, only if you got your other citizenship by birth (for example if you were born in a country that gives citizenship by birth, or born in Ukraine and one of the parents had a foreign citizenship that passed on to you) or emigrated before 18. Or if you got married to someone and their citizenship passed on to you automatically (I think this only applies to certain Arab countries). Also situations like what happened in Crimea, where people were forcibly issued foreign citizenship. Also, if you use your foreign passport to enter or leave Ukraine, you will lose your Ukrainian citizenship even if you got your foreign citizenship through the exceptional cases mentioned above.

You can read the original text on the official website of the Rada http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?id=&pf3511=61320 (http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?id=&pf3511=61320)
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: AkMike on 12:14 14-Mar-2017
President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko has submitted to the Verkhovna Rada an urgent bill on amending the Law on Citizenship of Ukraine on the implementation of the right to change citizenship (No. 6175).

According to information posted on the website of the Ukrainian parliament, the bill was registered on Monday, March 13.

"The bill deals with the issue of dual citizenship. This law will establish that a person who voluntarily received the citizenship of a foreign country, will be considered as such that falls under the requirement to terminate Ukrainian citizenship," presidential spokesman in the Verkhovna Rada Artur Herasymov said at a briefing on Monday.

He added that these changes in the law of Ukraine will clarify the grounds for the loss of Ukrainian citizenship. According to him, such a basis will be considered a voluntary receipt by a citizen of Ukraine of the citizenship of another country, as well as if a person does not renounce foreign citizenship within a certain period from the moment of receiving the Ukrainian citizenship.

"This issue concerns only situations of voluntary citizenship of another country, this does not concern the situation with our people in Crimea, because there were no talks of voluntariness," Herasymov said.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/408549.html (http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/408549.html)
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Vitaliy50 on 13:06 14-Mar-2017
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Yeah, only if you got your other citizenship by birth (for example if you were born in a country that gives citizenship by birth, or born in Ukraine and one of the parents had a foreign citizenship that passed on to you) or emigrated before 18. Or if you got married to someone and their citizenship passed on to you automatically (I think this only applies to certain Arab countries). Also situations like what happened in Crimea, where people were forcibly issued foreign citizenship. Also, if you use your foreign passport to enter or leave Ukraine, you will lose your Ukrainian citizenship even if you got your foreign citizenship through the exceptional cases mentioned above.

You can read the original text on the official website of the Rada http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?id=&pf3511=61320 (http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?id=&pf3511=61320)

If you use a foreign passport to enter Ukraine, how would Ukraine have a right to rid you of your Ukrainian citizenship? that is, if your situation applies to the exceptions you listed. Why couldn't these people exercise their right to dual citizenship?
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: David Rochlin on 13:41 14-Mar-2017
It's clearly unconstitutional to take Ukrainian citizenship away, but the intent is to prevent Ukrainian citizens from shielding themselves from Ukrainian justice and Ukraine's legal system with a foreign passport as has been the traditional way to escape criminal charges as long as anyone can remember.  Turning in a passport is not the same as legally renouncing foreign citizenship in the foreign country.  One might always get another passport. 
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: frank1010 on 13:54 14-Mar-2017
All valid points but there is a catch. For example if a Ukrainian has a chance to get a foreign passport (which comes with the citizenship like in Germany for example) he/she would gladly do so because having a European passport is by far better than the Ukrainian ... but when he/she want to come to Ukraine for example to visit parents or relatives the 90/180 rule would apply ... thus you get penalized for wanting another citizenship ...
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: shuggah21 on 14:11 14-Mar-2017
Maybe this proposal has something to do with Nasirov's case.

Also, since you would be a dual citizen, it seems that you could always get a Ukrainian passport and use it to enter and leave Ukraine. You would use your other passport as needed for travel to other countries. Then you would not violate the proposed law, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Vitaliy50 on 15:22 14-Mar-2017
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Maybe this proposal has something to do with Nasirov's case.

Also, since you would be a dual citizen, it seems that you could always get a Ukrainian passport and use it to enter and leave Ukraine. You would use your other passport as needed for travel to other countries. Then you would not violate the proposed law, or am I missing something?

This has everything to do with Nasirov's case. The Verkhovna Rada had a proposal to criminalize dual citizenships as early as 2014: http://news.liga.net/news/politics/976681-v_radu_vnesen_zakonoproekt_nakazyvayushchiy_za_dvoynoe_grazhdanstvo.htm (http://news.liga.net/news/politics/976681-v_radu_vnesen_zakonoproekt_nakazyvayushchiy_za_dvoynoe_grazhdanstvo.htm)

Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: David Rochlin on 15:28 14-Mar-2017
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All valid points but there is a catch. For example if a Ukrainian has a chance to get a foreign passport (which comes with the citizenship like in Germany for example) he/she would gladly do so because having a European passport is by far better than the Ukrainian ... but when he/she want to come to Ukraine for example to visit parents or relatives the 90/180 rule would apply ... thus you get penalized for wanting another citizenship ...

I recall there was some thread not too long ago, discussing how to use passports, when you have a Ukrainian plus foreign passport.  I believe it evolved that you use the Foreign passport, leaving and entering that country, but use the Ukrainian passport Entering and leaving Ukraine.   Can anyone confirm that?
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Reggie on 16:16 14-Mar-2017

Appears to be an ineffective (or cosmetic) proposal to battle corruption or combat separatists with dual nationalities.

Relevance to expats:  Probably none.

   

Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Tiancai on 16:21 14-Mar-2017
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If you use a foreign passport to enter Ukraine, how would Ukraine have a right to rid you of your Ukrainian citizenship? that is, if your situation applies to the exceptions you listed. Why couldn't these people exercise their right to dual citizenship?

Dual citizenship isn't a right, at least according to Ukrainian law, there are some exceptions that allow people to have other citizenships, but in either case, they are viewed solely as Ukrainians by Ukrainian authorities. According to the new law, if you use a foreign passport in Ukraine, it is deemed that you conscientiously made the choice to identify as your other nationality instead of as a Ukrainian (which apparently revokes your privilege of being allowed two citizenships on the basis that the other citizenship wasn't obtained through conscientious effort).
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: julienp on 17:31 14-Mar-2017
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Appears to be an ineffective (or cosmetic) proposal to battle corruption or combat separatists with dual nationalities.
Relevance to expats:  Probably none.

It can affect kids with dual nationality, so I would not dismiss it so quickly as irrelevant.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Ron-n-Sveta on 18:55 14-Mar-2017
I for one would like to know the answer to this (  there are some exceptions that allow people to have other citizenships ) does anyone know?
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Дідусь on 19:35 14-Mar-2017
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I for one would like to know the answer to this (  there are some exceptions that allow people to have other citizenships ) does anyone know?


Rada membership? Anyone requiring a quick escape route?  :)

Sorry, I'll get my coat.  :(


Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Reggie on 21:18 14-Mar-2017


"Under the proposed amendments, Ukrainians would lose their citizenship if they "voluntarily" obtain citizenship in another country.

They also specify that anyone who obtained Ukrainian citizenship but did not return the passports of the countries of their previous citizenship would also lose Ukrainian citizenship.

The discussion of dual citizenship has come to the fore in Ukraine following unconfirmed media reports saying that suspended tax and customs service chief Roman Nasirov, who has been arrested on suspicion of corruption, holds foreign passports".  http://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-dual-citizenship-poroshenko-nasirov/28368588.html (http://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-dual-citizenship-poroshenko-nasirov/28368588.html)

My comment:  So his "foreign passports" stole $75 million?  Or he, Nasirov, stole the loot?   

A foreign passport is not immunity from prosecution in any country.  So what are they fixated on?   

For argument's sake, let's say they need a law on passports to combat corruption: the law can be narrowly tailored to apply only to government officials  ("Government officials cannot hold a foreign passport").  So why apply it to everyone?   

This is a government hell-bent on destroying the country through flagrant stupidity or willful mismanagement.

Still it's hard to say that it's the dumbest legislative proposal: 'Prime Minister Vladimir Groisman at the weekly cabinet meeting on Wednesday, 13 July 2016, stated he supports a legal prohibition on divorce.'  <a href="http://newsme.com.ua/en/ukraine/3464348/">Источник</a>   
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: David Rochlin on 21:30 14-Mar-2017
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"Under the proposed amendments, Ukrainians would lose their citizenship if they "voluntarily" obtain citizenship in another country.

They also specify that anyone who obtained Ukrainian citizenship but did not return the passports of the countries of their previous citizenship would also lose Ukrainian citizenship.

The discussion of dual citizenship has come to the fore in Ukraine following unconfirmed media reports saying that suspended tax and customs service chief Roman Nasirov, who has been arrested on suspicion of corruption, holds foreign passports".  http://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-dual-citizenship-poroshenko-nasirov/28368588.html (http://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-dual-citizenship-poroshenko-nasirov/28368588.html)

My comment:  So his "foreign passports" stole $75 million?  Or he, Nasirov, stole the loot?   

A foreign passport is not immunity from prosecution in any country.  So what are they fixated on?   

For argument's sake, let's say they need a law on passports to combat corruption: the law can be narrowly tailored to apply only to government officials  ("Government officials cannot hold a foreign passport").  So why apply it to everyone?   

This is a government hell-bent on destroying the country through flagrant stupidity or willful mismanagement.

Still it's hard to say that it's the dumbest legislative proposal: 'Prime Minister Vladimir Groisman at the weekly cabinet meeting on Wednesday, 13 July 2016, stated he supports a legal prohibition on divorce.'  <a href="http://newsme.com.ua/en/ukraine/3464348/">Источник</a>

As Old Perdon said, the Passport is an escape route, but not just to get out of the country.  Crooks in Ukraine specifically go to countries from which Ukraine would have difficulty extraditing them:
Russia, Israel, and the U.S. and UK are quite popular destinations. 
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Reggie on 21:57 14-Mar-2017
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Crooks in Ukraine specifically go to countries from which Ukraine would have difficulty extraditing them:
Russia, Israel, and the U.S. and UK are quite popular destinations.

Wouldn't it then make more sense to spend time on strengthening extradition treaties?   

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For argument's sake, let's say they need a law on passports to combat corruption: the law can be narrowly tailored to apply only to government officials  ("Government officials cannot hold a foreign passport").  So why apply it to everyone?

See my comment above.   If the crooks used X (insert whatever you want) to further a crime.  Does it make sense to ban everyone from having X, or just the class of people (government officials) that use X in furtherance of crime? 

IMHO, it reflects poorly on Ukraine's willingness and/or ability to investigate, apprehend and prosecute if they think banning passports will fix a major crime problem.

And someone sophisticated enough to carry-out a major crime, is sophisticated enough to hide a second passport or commit the crime through proxies.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: shuggah21 on 08:00 15-Mar-2017
Normally Nasirov would never be convicted of anything by Ukrainian courts, but the IMF, EU, and America see this as a test case as to whether Ukraine can deal with its corruption problem. Continued foreign aid might depend on Nasirov being convicted. Poroshenko has an interest to make this happen.

On the other hand, maybe if Nasirov sees that the government truly plans to convict him and give him meaningful punishment, he wants to cut a deal. He might have information that could take down higher-level officials (maybe even Poroshenko himself) or important oligarchs for their own corruption schemes.

Put it all together and it could benefit a lot of parties if Nasirov were to somehow end up dead. The foreign benefactors would have no reason to withhold funding, and the local thieves remain safe. Maybe I'm too cynical.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Fraucha on 08:18 15-Mar-2017
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Normally Nasirov would never be convicted of anything by Ukrainian courts, but the IMF, EU, and America see this as a test case as to whether Ukraine can deal with its corruption problem. Continued foreign aid might depend on Nasirov being convicted. Poroshenko has an interest to make this happen.

On the other hand, maybe if Nasirov sees that the government truly plans to convict him and give him meaningful punishment, he wants to cut a deal. He might have information that could take down higher-level officials (maybe even Poroshenko himself) or important oligarchs for their own corruption schemes.

Put it all together and it could benefit a lot of parties if Nasirov were to somehow end up dead. The foreign benefactors would have no reason to withhold funding, and the local thieves remain safe. Maybe I'm too cynical.

No, not cynical. You make a good point.  We should have a poll, Dead or Not before it's too late.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: David Rochlin on 08:21 15-Mar-2017
Some crooked Oligarch cronies, who might have fingered their patrons, appear to have died in recent years, but some of them are believed to have faked their deaths and used that second passport as a stay out of jail, free, card.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: kyivkpic on 09:25 15-Mar-2017
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Normally Nasirov would never be convicted of anything by Ukrainian courts, but the IMF, EU, and America see this as a test case as to whether Ukraine can deal with its corruption problem. Continued foreign aid might depend on Nasirov being convicted. Poroshenko has an interest to make this happen.

On the other hand, maybe if Nasirov sees that the government truly plans to convict him and give him meaningful punishment, he wants to cut a deal. He might have information that could take down higher-level officials (maybe even Poroshenko himself) or important oligarchs for their own corruption schemes.

Put it all together and it could benefit a lot of parties if Nasirov were to somehow end up dead. The foreign benefactors would have no reason to withhold funding, and the local thieves remain safe. Maybe I'm too cynical.

No, not cynical. You make a good point.  We should have a poll, Dead or Not before it's too late.


Nasimov should be dead but by the State like they do in China to corrupt bankers. I hope the IMF et al make Ukraine burn a whole bunch of these assholes in order to get another single dollar. You can't have a civilization with people so goddamn stupid and evil.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: frank1010 on 10:47 15-Mar-2017
Look at Russia or Chins, countries which live under dictatorship rather long. Hence such civilasation is quite successful (for the leading caste ...). How china deals with some corrupt people is not defined by anti corruption law but by jealousy, competition and political behaviour.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Reggie on 21:59 15-Mar-2017

How things may be interpreted:

Nasirov Dead = dangerous to work for the oligarchs or killed by the government because he was about to rat other officials out.

Nasirov convicted = chance for gov. to say "we're doing a good job" and "we're tough on corruption"  (hell, they can say it; they need to say something even if nobody really believes it).   

Nasirov in a perpetual bed-ridden state = 'Hey, let's forget about this, go back to drinking vodka, and watch more Eurovision.'

Nasirov recovers his health and is found not guilty = "Guess what happened to the prosecutor that tried to bring this case!"

Nasirov convicted, serves short prison sentence, appears in public with braided hair = 'The new leader of maidan 2.0 has arrived.  All hail Nasirov so we can embark in a new catastrophic direction.'  Nasirov becomes only second to Princess Olga in Ukrainian folklore.

Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: EnglishMKyiv on 12:01 16-Mar-2017
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I for one would like to know the answer to this (  there are some exceptions that allow people to have other citizenships ) does anyone know?


Rada membership? Anyone requiring a quick escape route?  :)

Sorry, I'll get my coat.  :(

I am British and live in Ukraine with my PR.

My 2 daughters were born here and are thus Ukrainian.

The British authorities disagree however as I, their Dad, am British then my daughters are British too.

Net result my poor hard done by daughters are forced to be dual citizens.

When in Ukraine they are Ukrainians - when arriving anywhere else they will be able to choose which passport to present on arrival.

It is not their fault that their Dad is British so they did not choose to be dual national citizens so the law does not apply to them.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Eddie on 18:27 20-Mar-2017
Just wondering is anyone is in the same boat here. 

Back story....wife has property in Ukraine, then emigrates to USA legally, obtains citizenship and then marries me.  Then she builds house on property in Ukraine.

I guess technically she is not considered a Ukrainian citizen anymore by the Ukrainian authorities because Ukraine doesn't recognize dual citizenship. 

Any hiccups to be wary of as a US citizen owning property.  Should she have a Will in Ukraine or how is that handled over there?

Is there any reason she should renew her Ukrainian internal and external passports while we are on vacation and just keep acting like she is a Ukrainian Citizen while in Ukraine.

Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: David Rochlin on 21:53 20-Mar-2017
If she uses her Ukrainian Passport and they renew it, then she is a Ukrainian citizen.  If they won't let her use the Ukrainian passport and they won't renew it, then she is not.  You should act as if they have to take some positive action to deny her status, rather than take it upon yourself to clarify the situation for the Ukrainian government.
Title: Re: Possible new law, Poroshenko to ban dual citizenship:
Post by: Tiancai on 10:15 21-Mar-2017
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Just wondering is anyone is in the same boat here. 

Back story....wife has property in Ukraine, then emigrates to USA legally, obtains citizenship and then marries me.  Then she builds house on property in Ukraine.

I guess technically she is not considered a Ukrainian citizen anymore by the Ukrainian authorities because Ukraine doesn't recognize dual citizenship. 

Any hiccups to be wary of as a US citizen owning property.  Should she have a Will in Ukraine or how is that handled over there?

Is there any reason she should renew her Ukrainian internal and external passports while we are on vacation and just keep acting like she is a Ukrainian Citizen while in Ukraine.

She should be able to renew her documents at the moment, since the proposed law has not been accepted/enforced as of yet. But if she used her US passport to enter Ukraine, then this might cause her problems in the future if the law does pass (cause this info will be available in the border control database).