Author Topic: Social Media  (Read 792 times)

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Offline reddevil

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Social Media
« on: 14:58 16-May-2017 »
I see the President has decided to ban social media sites 'In accordance with the decision of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, the restrictive measures prohibit the Internet providers from providing services for access to social networks VKontakte (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login), Odnoklassniki (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login), Mail.ru (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) email provider, Yandex portal, Kaspersky and Doctor Web anti-virus providers.' I'm sure lots of law abiding Ukrainians use these sites and not just my missus, not exactly promoting freedom of speech, why don't the ban FB, Google and all the others?



Online Reggie

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #1 on: 16:02 16-May-2017 »
No it's not consistent with freedom of speech.

It's a totalitarian measure.  It needs to be called what it is.

On the other hand, it's more like Expatua now.   :D :D :P  Just kidding fellas.  Relax.  (Some ha ha never hurt anyone.)

But seriously, given the high rate of sexually transmitted disease in Ukraine and rampant infidelity, hopefully turning off VK will reduce that.  But probably not -- there will be substitutes.   I don't think I believe this myself - just trying to be optimistic somehow.  Proxy servers and so forth.

Part of it has to do with Russian propaganda, which normally is pretty ineffective if you ask me.  I watch war videos on another channel and there are paid Russian comments, and to be honest they are fairly lame most of the time.  I always find myself mumbling "whatever dude" when I read the comments, and I'm not even a surfer or a teenager.   However, more recently there was an upswing in Russian comments and photos about Kyiv's "Gay Rainbow" on VK - which touched a nerve in Ukraine.  (BTW Please no human rights speeches about gay rights - I don't care who sleeps with whom, and I'm not in favor of stoning gays to death; just pointing out a fact.).   
« Last Edit: 16:24 16-May-2017 by Reggie »

Online frank1010

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #2 on: 16:02 16-May-2017 »
Quite simple, because FB, google and all the others are not russian companies ... ask Russia why crimea is occupied by them and where all the weapons for the terrorists in eastern Ukraine come from ...

Online David Rochlin

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #3 on: 01:21 17-May-2017 »
Russia forced the creater of VK to sell when he would not agree to give complete access to data to Russian law enforcement.   The Russian government has access to all private information on VK and it is potentially a gold mine of Ukrainians and Russians too, with guilty secrets who could be extorted to sabatage or to be Russian espionage, agents.  We all love VK and there is no replacement, other than the Original Facebook it was modeled after, but there is a war on, etc.  Possibly, the thing to do is find a way to pirate all the data for Ukrainians, and rebuild the platform on the correct side of the border.  Let legal issues sort themselves out later?

Online Jay

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #4 on: 02:31 17-May-2017 »
VK today is a shadow of what it was  pre Maidan .
It was an excellent resource during Maidan and in the early days of the invasion .
Over time -- anything with a resemblance of being "pro" Ukrainian has been removed -- as well as links to the real news !

Online Reggie

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #5 on: 07:37 17-May-2017 »
Do governments manipulate news online?

Do governments data mine personal information from social media sites?

That's the new world.  It shouldn't be the new world, but it is.   

The only present option -- not a good one -- is to turn off our devices.

In Ukraine's case, it doesn't help to ban access to information.  What you have to do is be a good government for your people, and to have an educated population, so that your people will never betray the government. 

If a Ukrainian citizen doesn't want Russia (or whomever) to have access to their private data, that should be up to the private person to decide.

When you start to ban content from the eyes of the people, your state starts to represent the Mullahs in Iran.  And even then, it doesn't work.  People always find a way -- and then they hate their government more. 

-- Read about the Mullahs censorship:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

-- Read about how governments and major tech companies like Facebook, Apple and Google are  vacuuming up customer data:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

-- Read about how governments try to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: 07:58 17-May-2017 by Reggie »

Online David Rochlin

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #6 on: 07:55 17-May-2017 »
I would propose an analogy, an imaginary parallel universe where President Trump forces Facebook to mine data about Latin American illegals to identify and deport them, and Mexico reacts to that.  That might demonstrate that the situation is not only about freedom of expression or freedom to choose products.

Online Reggie

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #7 on: 08:05 17-May-2017 »
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I would propose an analogy, an imaginary parallel universe where President Trump forces Facebook to mine data about Latin American illegals to identify and deport them, and Mexico reacts to that.  That might demonstrate that the situation is not only about freedom of expression or freedom to choose products.

I didn't really understand what you wrote.

Facebook and the NSA already mine data from site users.  (See news story above).

I didn't really get the part about freedom to choose products.  I guess we have that Freedom; turn Facebook off.  I see drift-net data mining more as a privacy issue and the undermining of our Constitution:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."  4th Am. US Const.

Offline Tiancai

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #8 on: 12:40 17-May-2017 »
I've never used any of those (except for a mail.ru address for spam), and don't see why any other Ukrainian would have the need to, when Facebook and Gmail are much more reliable and convenient. Sure, FB and Google may be passing on data to American intelligence services, but considering that the U.S. is our ally, this wouldn't be a problem for regular Ukrainians (as opposed to pro-Russian traitors who may be conspiring something against Ukraine). On the other hand, using social media of the country we're at war with, putting aside the revenue they get from showing us advertisements, is basically letting them know all about us. Which is a problem for regular law abiding Ukrainians, whose data may be used against them by the FSB at any moment. While supporters of the "Russian world" can exchange information and plan diversions under the Kremlin's protection, knowing that those social media will never share their data with the SBU.

So I think it's a good idea to block these media, as in the least this'll make it a bit harder for the pro-Russian fifth column to do their thing, although obviously anyone can use proxies and such. But over time, regular Ukrainians with no connection to the "Russian world" will just move over to FB and Google, cause it's simply a pain in the ass to use proxies every time simply to communicate with your friends on social media, having to configure it on your phone, etc. In the end, most of the remaining users will be those having something to hide under the Kremlin's hood, for whom using those particular social media is crucial.

In my opinion, the SBU should covertly set up free proxies for people to use, this way during the final stage when it's mostly the traitors who are left, it could check what exactly those people are doing on the enemy's social media.

Offline Darren Jones

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #9 on: 12:51 17-May-2017 »
VK is great, most people my age and lower I know in Ukraine are on VK more than FB. Watch films on it, serials, porn, add music to your playlist (which are very easy to download through a chrome add on). Always found the VK app performed better than a FB one and I stopped using facebook about a year ago. Local groups are very good also, ecspecially in the smaller towns for jobs, selling ect. Shame its gone, had about 900 songs that I listen to whilst at work. Also when my wife is not working with me and at home I sometimes need her to add some translation to a document and I just send it to her through VK messenger. All her uni freinds used VK more than email

Online Reggie

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #10 on: 16:27 17-May-2017 »
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I've never used any of those (except for a mail.ru address for spam), and don't see why any other Ukrainian would have the need to, when Facebook and Gmail are much more reliable and convenient.

I wondered about this too.  I have two theories.

1 - The instructions for signing up were in a language most Ukrainians could understand, so the Russian sites became the default services.  And then people want to connect with their friends, and so the sites attract more users, and it snowballs from there.

2 - The second theory -- which is a bit more than a theory -- is that Ukrainian women are dating Russian men.  I was surprised when some women I know in Ukraine had Russian boyfriends, took regular trips to Russia, and so on.   I asked them about it.  They weren't concerned that there is a war going.  Or, really, what I should say is that they were concerned there was a war going on, but that it should not interfere with their dating habits.  Don't ask me to explain it.

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So I think it's a good idea to block these media, as in the least this'll make it a bit harder for the pro-Russian fifth column to do their thing

For the most part, Russian trolls are not effective (and neither is Ukraine's information war).   

It's better to educate Ukrainians.

Anyone that is hypnotized by Russian propaganda is pretty much a retard to begin with.  And yes, there are plenty of retards in Ukraine.  But the better example is to say, "Ukraine is different from Russia, we have a free society."  And to improve Ukraine so that even the retards don't want to betray it. 

"The Official Unpopular View on Expatua"

This view is not popular here -- not that I care.   But I will talk about it because I believe it. 

I also think the Russian trolls (I'm not talking about spammers or advertisers) should be allowed on this site; the ones that say Putin is "great" for X Y Z reasons. 

Firstly, the Russians would have their @sses handed to them in a fair debate. 

Secondly, what good does it do to sit around amongst ourselves and say how bad Putin is?  Maybe a little.  But are there really idiot expats that will be swayed towards Putin because of Expatua?  I don't believe this.  Those that fall in love with Pooty were already in love with him, or will find a way.

Thirdly, and most importantly.  When debating ideas in a free society -- you don't block unpopular or crappy opinions.  Ask debating societies: it signals defeat from the outset.  It suggests that you can't handle what the other side has to say.   It is one of the things that actually makes me feel ashamed because I will debate anyone about an idea I believe in.  And I believe the Pooty supporters would lose, and it would give an opportunity to change some of their minds.
« Last Edit: 16:52 17-May-2017 by Reggie »

Offline Tiancai

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #11 on: 15:30 18-May-2017 »
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I wondered about this too.  I have two theories.

1 - The instructions for signing up were in a language most Ukrainians could understand, so the Russian sites became the default services.  And then people want to connect with their friends, and so the sites attract more users, and it snowballs from there.

Facebook had a multilingual interface (including Ukrainian) for as long as I can remember (I'm on FB for almost 10 years already).

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2 - The second theory -- which is a bit more than a theory -- is that Ukrainian women are dating Russian men.  I was surprised when some women I know in Ukraine had Russian boyfriends, took regular trips to Russia, and so on.   I asked them about it.  They weren't concerned that there is a war going.  Or, really, what I should say is that they were concerned there was a war going on, but that it should not interfere with their dating habits.  Don't ask me to explain it.

Well, obviously politics aren't the first thing on a gold digger's mind. Those who lack the language skills to go on Western dating sites, turn to the direction where there is no language barrier. But I honestly doubt that they form a significant percentage of users.

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For the most part, Russian trolls are not effective (and neither is Ukraine's information war).

It's better to educate Ukrainians.

Anyone that is hypnotized by Russian propaganda is pretty much a retard to begin with.  And yes, there are plenty of retards in Ukraine.  But the better example is to say, "Ukraine is different from Russia, we have a free society."  And to improve Ukraine so that even the retards don't want to betray it. 

This is easy to say, but implementing it in practice, on the other hand.. will be rather difficult, considering what kind of people we have in politics and their priorities.


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"The Official Unpopular View on Expatua"

This view is not popular here -- not that I care.   But I will talk about it because I believe it. 

I also think the Russian trolls (I'm not talking about spammers or advertisers) should be allowed on this site; the ones that say Putin is "great" for X Y Z reasons. 

Firstly, the Russians would have their @sses handed to them in a fair debate. 

Secondly, what good does it do to sit around amongst ourselves and say how bad Putin is?  Maybe a little.  But are there really idiot expats that will be swayed towards Putin because of Expatua?  I don't believe this.  Those that fall in love with Pooty were already in love with him, or will find a way.

Thirdly, and most importantly.  When debating ideas in a free society -- you don't block unpopular or crappy opinions.  Ask debating societies: it signals defeat from the outset.  It suggests that you can't handle what the other side has to say.   It is one of the things that actually makes me feel ashamed because I will debate anyone about an idea I believe in.  And I believe the Pooty supporters would lose, and it would give an opportunity to change some of their minds.

While I do agree with this in case of a public platform, but this is a private site with its own rules determined by the owner, so if he doesn't want to see people post pro-Russian bullpoop on his site, it's his right. For example, someone might not mind people poopting on his lawn, cause he can then go over beat the crap out of them and make them lick it all off, but another person has more important things to do, so he shoots them the moment they step on his lawn.

Online Reggie

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #12 on: 15:39 18-May-2017 »


@Tiancai,

I tend to agree with most of what you wrote.   

I'm not sure the women that are dating men are all gold diggers.  I was pretty surprised to see this going on.   (Taking trips to Thailand together and so forth.)  I don't understand it or know the real numbers of what's going on.  'C'est la vie' as they say in Mongolia. 

I like your analogy about poopting on laws -- unfortunately the dogs in Ukraine pretty much crap where they want to.  :D   

Thanks for your feedback. 

Hey, if you have some funny stuff, be a good sport and put something up on my cartoon thread to liven up the mood around here.  I'm worried about everyone's blood pressure and salo consumption. 
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Offline Darren Jones

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #13 on: 10:21 22-May-2017 »
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I wondered about this too.  I have two theories.

1 - The instructions for signing up were in a language most Ukrainians could understand, so the Russian sites became the default services.  And then people want to connect with their friends, and so the sites attract more users, and it snowballs from there.

2 - The second theory -- which is a bit more than a theory -- is that Ukrainian women are dating Russian men.  I was surprised when some women I know in Ukraine had Russian boyfriends, took regular trips to Russia, and so on.   I asked them about it.  They weren't concerned that there is a war going.  Or, really, what I should say is that they were concerned there was a war going on, but that it should not interfere with their dating habits.  Don't ask me to explain it.


A few more -

3 - If your using a Russian Windows then yoru pushed to Yandex, to VK ect.

4 - VK was heavily promoted in Ukraine a good 5-7 years ago and you can argue a large amount of the older generation were getting online around then. It is when smart phones did more so computers became cheaper. Also internet became more available to most Ukrainians with many small villages providing free open wifi which had a knock on effect into people getting internet in their homes. On my wifes VK she plays a few games and the average score amoungst her freinds is 1000-3000...her mother and teachers from school are 10,000-20,000 ...to put it in perspective thats 40-60 year old women "gaming" for a minimum of 4 hours a day for the past 5 years to get that score on these games!! Go on their profiles its just their sons and daughters, mothers of their childrens freinds and a bunch of cooking pages.

5 - Students are broke in hostels bored in -20 winters, VK has all films and serials including HD pirated films so you do not have to try hard to find something to watch. Also has a direct link to Youtube videos through th video search and with the free music there is no need to go elsewhere.

6 - Similar to your second point - Not every Ukrainian girl wants a foreign husband, the Maidan bread a lot more patriots for this also. On my wifes Facebook or even skype she gets about 3-5 men on average a week trying to message her. On VK she gets none. Bit insulting really as I only get one or two "me love you longtime's" trying to add me on Skype a year and yet she gets atleast 2 turks with false latino names a week.

7 - Like six, not every Ukrainian is obsessed with the grass is greener and stay in their own country with their own people and just use VK. Why do they care about the brits upsetting the EU or the Yanks shooting each other.

8 - starting a shop group/page or adding a company is far more easy.

9 - The photo filters are very good, which for a lot of girls who do not have daddy buying them iphones it is great to have the high quality of filter so their cheap phone can still give them the quality that the celebs they follow have

10 - As per your first point, the language is the biggest draw. When I was in Kiev I would use google translate to search for bars and clubs in VK rather than in English on Facebook. Reviews were more true and the results where better

Offline Tiancai

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Re: Social Media
« Reply #14 on: 17:51 22-May-2017 »
I get what you're saying, especially considering that VK's advertising campaign started during a period when Ukraine/Russia relations were in a much warmer phase. But times change, so people should be a bit more considerate of the current situation in the country and in the world. VK is basically a rip off of Facebook, just like Yandex is a rip off of Yahoo. From what people here mention about music and video on it, must also be a rip off of Myspace (RIP) and YouTube.

In any case, I know it's unpleasant to get up from a chair that one's behind has been warming for a while, so people will be complaining, but it's just a question of time, humans are very adaptable. It would be an interesting experiment to see how many people will be willing to go back to VK if it is unblocked in three years, after they get accustomed to using FB and other non-Russian social media.